16.12.2007

VanceS contributed 146 messages, 5 emotes during 139 minutes. 2007.12.16 04:06:50 Login Room: VirtualVance VanceS joined the room. VanceS left the room. Room: TI_Reception VanceS joined the room. MichaelAC joined the room. MichaelAC: hey mate! Just we 2! MichaelAC: Guess ur off in another window - I'll come back in a bit SvetlanaM joined the room. SvetlanaM: Hi everyone. VanceS: HII SvetlanaM: Michael and Vance VanceS: sorry, got here on the hour and no one was home SvetlanaM: Greetings from sunny Spain. VanceS: where in spain exactly? SvetlanaM: on the coast, between Valencia and Alicante - 180 degree view of the sea - sunrises are special VanceS: is that your home? SvetlanaM: Holiday home. had it for 25 years now - a bolt hole! too small for visitors! We escape from Christmas! SvetlanaM: A bolt hole - is that a British English expression I wonder? VanceS: Here in Abu Dhabi I have a 90% sea view SvetlanaM: Do Americans undrstand it? SvetlanaM: aaah! 90% SvetlanaM: wowie SvetlanaM: so you see sunrise and sunset VanceS: sunset SvetlanaM: I run every morning and run into the sunrise, with a moon in the sky on some mornings. Quite eerie. VanceS: how far do you run? SvetlanaM: Anyway, I just dropped by to say Hi and really Happy Holidays. SvetlanaM: Happpy Holidays in Abu Dhabi - I wonder what happens where you are? VanceS: nice of you to stop in, people should be turning up in the next half hour as the USA wakes up VanceS: at christmas a lot of people leave VanceS: we get the day off VanceS: it's not holiday time in Muslim countries SvetlanaM: right, I forgot about the USA time difference. Yes, of course. VanceS: there is coincidentally a muslim holiday this weekend VanceS: sorry, in a couple of days, we have 5 days break VanceS: work at Christmas, and then another 2 weeks break MichaelAC: Back again VanceS: hey Michael MichaelAC: Hi V and S VanceS: sorry, I'd wandered off to other windows SvetlanaM: Vance - a question. Someone asked me the other day: Do you think one can teach English entirely online. In only an online classroom. Do you think the technology is good enough yet. MichaelAC: s'awright SvetlanaM: What would you answer. Hi Michael. VanceS: yep, I think so VanceS: I have tried learning mandarin just recently VanceS: and I would say definitely, yes MichaelAC: yep - if the level is right -ie not for elementary. But V differs on this I think SvetlanaM: In a classroom environment? SvetlanaM: not one on one. VanceS: depends of course on the skill of the student and teacher VanceS: now my mandarin is elementary VanceS: with a capital L SvetlanaM: OK - assuming experience with technology on both sides. MichaelAC: capiltal L in elementary?? VanceS: so on that experience, you could start with the british council beginning lessons on mandarin VanceS . o O ( SOUNDS like an L in elementary, doesn't it begin with an L ?) ) MichaelAC smiles MichaelAC: are you thinking of doing this Svetlana? SvetlanaM: Are there any online schools that successfully deliver online English classes? Reliably deliver them and are paid to do it? VanceS: yes, the one that Eric Baber runs SvetlanaM: lol! Michael SvetlanaM: Is that one 100% online? SvetlanaM: you mean NetLanguages? VanceS: is it netlearnlanguages? SvetlanaM: I mean with a full duplex classroom environment? MichaelAC: I must say I'd feel a bit burdened by being a sole online teacher of a class learning English. MichaelAC: Full duplex would make a real difference SvetlanaM: I did my first online teaching course with Eric Baber - by the way. It was great. I did it Ages and ages ago. SvetlanaM: COLTE was the name of the course. VanceS: I'm not sure, have you read my critique of wiziq vs elluminate MichaelAC: no VanceS: is duplex necessary? VanceS: creates problems MichaelAC: Ok - I back track. Semi-duplex would be OK SvetlanaM: Well, if it's going to replicate an f2f classroom, then I'd say duplex is essential. SvetlanaM: Because in real life we interrupt and talk over each other. VanceS: you don't have feedback problems n f2f classes MichaelAC: full duplex can be confusing SvetlanaM: No, I've not read your critique, Vance. Sorry VanceS: http://advanceducation.blogspot.com/2007/11/whos-in-charge-here-wiziq-and.html SvetlanaM: Thanks, Vance. Will look at it afterwards. VanceS: wiziq is full duplex, as is skypecasting VanceS: it's ok if everyone wears headphones VanceS: but there are still lags in packet delivery VanceS: we used wiziq for an online meetign the other day SvetlanaM: But this is my precise point - I'm stuck on this point, actually. We're teaching in Second Life, we've got all these fancy programmes, but we can't replicate a live classroom. I'm assuming that everyone has all the equipment required and all the training. VanceS: and one person kept interrupting the others VanceS: it sounded impolite VanceS: but we worked out he was responding on a delay VanceS: why would you want to replicate a live classroom? MichaelAC: I don't know if we should be trying to duplicate live classrooms (model) i n SL... MichaelAC: snap! VanceS: Papert in Mindstorms says that was the fault of early filmmakers VanceS: they tried to replicate the theater experience MichaelAC: new tech means new methodologies SvetlanaM: Right, good point. But that's what happens in a real classroom. So, is it basically because of delay and broadband problems that online classrooms don't work? Does that mean that it's a question of time until we all have good connections? Is that the main problem? MichaelAC: but that is the REAL challenge - reconceptualising VanceS: I think what works best in present technology is half duplex MichaelAC: agreed VanceS: it might work well in f2f classrooms as well VanceS: i could use it in my classrooms VanceS: get the students to pay attn to me for a change RitaZ joined the room. MichaelAC: hi there Rita! VanceS hugs Rita RitaZ hugs all three friendsç SvetlanaM: Michael - I agree about not duplicating f2f in SL. But I still think we're not really as 'smart' as we think we are until we can teach a class online, replicate a class f2f online. I realise I'm overstating this - and treading on peoples' toes here - but it really gets to me. SvetlanaM: Hi Rita - VanceS: it's a good challenge Svetlana RitaZ: talking about SL, I see ... SvetlanaM: yes, Vance. you're right MichaelAC: we can't replicate a f2f class online - we can only approximate MichaelAC: but the results may be as good as f2f MichaelAC: When you see someone like Jonathan Finkelstein in action in a virtual classroom you see hiw it can be more effective than f2f MichaelAC: Jonathan from LearningTimes VanceS: I would expect my online environment to seamlessly allow me access to the resources and people in the live synch and asynch environment SvetlanaM: Michael - or the results may be different and hence useful. Finkelstein uses which classroom environment? VanceS: elluminate? MichaelAC: Elluminate mostly. Also Adobe connect RitaZ: elluminate in SL? MichaelAC: no, not in SL Rita MichaelAC: But something like that will come VanceS: actually we are talking about replicating live classrooms in online environments SvetlanaM: OK< Elluminate. I understand. I'm thinking of students in China, for example, who want to study English in the UK, who have the computers and broadband connections but can't travel to UK (or USA or whatevere) MichaelAC: sign em up online! RitaZ: thats the challenge, yes, Svet, like people in Arg VanceS: If I want to study mandarin maybe i don't want full duplex with everyone talking at once MichaelAC: I intend to work with these kinds of students in my retirement! :) VanceS: I want to pause and process RitaZ: thats also my aim, Michael :-) VanceS: whatever happens I want a recording MichaelAC: a retired webheads college? SvetlanaM: Right, But in real life, out on the street, we don't pause and process and rewind. VanceS: I often record f2f classes, arabic for instance RitaZ: good idea, Mike :-) VanceS: the classroom environment prepares you for the street MichaelAC: but how well? SvetlanaM: the f2f classroom environment. VanceS: and visa versa, works the other way as well VanceS: I have often brought things I've encountered in the streets back to class RitaZ: yet, it will take a long time, as things are today, or maybe we are too anxious to see it working SvetlanaM: yes, I agree Vance. I see the many advantages of blended learning. I'm just kinda miffed that we can't duplicate f2f classroom. I realise now that it was naive of me to think that we could... I seem to be monopolising the discussion with my question. MichaelAC smiles VanceS: at the moment I think you have problems with delays in full duplex, feedback in full duplex MichaelAC: And back to a critcal question - how mucj learning actually takes place in classrooms? VanceS: bumping into things and getting stuck in SL RitaZ: I agree, Michael VanceS: not being able to work things in Second Life MichaelAC: Ultimately the student has to take ownership of the process outside the classroom MichaelAC: but we all know that MichaelAC: the classroom - f2f or online - is the trigger VanceS: I would think online environments can go some way to help people learn more efficiently than in in-your-chair classrooms RitaZ: what stds seem to profit from mainly is their relationship...., which can be replicated, at least we see they are text messaging all the time, which we teachers have not exploited yet MichaelAC: agreed SvetlanaM: I agree, Rita. VanceS: Konrad Glogowski studied his students' discourse in blogs he set up for them VanceS: his disertation was to analyze what they said about the coursework VanceS: guess what MichaelAC: Konrad's great RitaZ listens to Vance VanceS: they didn't say ANYthing about the coursework SvetlanaM: lol VanceS: he left them at it for a few weeks or a month VanceS: he did find that they discussed topics important to them VanceS: were not frivolous - 8th graders VanceS: so eventually he started bringing that discourse back into the classroom VanceS: interesting finding SvetlanaM agreed VanceS: the classroom does not set the discourse for the class VanceS: Konrad found a way to elicit the discourse from the students VanceS: and then to exploit it RitaZ: it´s evident their interests are different and we need to accept that and change our methods and approach VanceS: yes, this could be key SvetlanaM agreed VanceS: in a f2f classroom, it's not likely that this kind of discourse would develop VanceS: in an online environment it is VanceS: or can be MichaelAC: but Konrads' students are actually f2f - but they do blog DennisOl joined the room. VanceS: konrad thought at first his thesis was compromised MichaelAC: so it's blended RitaZ: teachers here keep complaining about their stds lack of response to traditional teaching..., but they blame stds MichaelAC: hi there Dennis VanceS: then realized he had made another important discovery SvetlanaM: I agree. But are we not just rationalising our way around the fact that there are 'no' successful online classroom environments? That's a very contentious question! VanceS: hey Dennis SvetlanaM: Hi Dennis RitaZ hugs dear Dennis DennisOl: Hey, Michael, Vance, Sveta, Rita. MichaelAC: we're having a serious discussion (for a change) ;) DennisOl da un abrazo grande a Rita también DennisOl: A serious discussion, huh? Well, by all means do carry on! RitaZ gracias, Dennis, otro mas para tí ;-)) VanceS: Svetlana is trying to replicate f2f classrooms onlline DennisOl tiene una sonría muy grande MichaelAC: about whether you can teach as well online? replicate/dup;icate f2f online etc DennisOl: My contention is YES. SvetlanaM: Let me rephrase is: If there were 100% successful, reliable online classroom platforms available. Would we be using them? Teaching students in China , for example. DennisOl: However, I think teaching online requires a different skill set. MichaelAC: think we're all agreed on that. The bigger question is HOW? DennisOl: The fly in the ointment, Michael, is the classroom platform. RitaZ: different skills are needed, though, perhaps more demanding, more perception development MichaelAC: and more time DennisOl: Too many of them require lock-step thinking. VanceS: reading downes today "the lms is dead" SvetlanaM: Yes,agreed, Rita. SvetlanaM: Ims? what is Ims? DennisOl: And organization / presentation of material that is not dynamic and collaborative. MichaelAC: Stephen has been predicting that for years! And he's right I think MichaelAC: learning management system DennisOl: I agree with you 100%, Rita. SvetlanaM: Oh, yes. thanks, Michae. MichaelAC: LMSs are on the way out VanceS: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=42717 MichaelAC: brb DennisOl: Thanks for the link, Vance. RitaZ: teachers will need more skills, and I guess that there will be fewer teachers left..., the challenge is big DennisOl: I think there will be fewer SKILLED teachers. MichaelAC: back again DennisOl: I think there will be more and more teachers who work online--but not well. MichaelAC: why do you think that Dennis? SvetlanaM: Very good point - Rita. It's so difficcult to teach well online. To make sure that each and every student in the class gets something from your lesson. DennisOl: Because teachers, as a whole, fall into ruts--doing things the same way, doing things formulaicly. RitaZ: and the next problem: show stds the advantages, teach THEM how to MichaelAC: what about new and younger teachers? RitaZ: which we cannot do unless we truly believe in the change SvetlanaM: Yes, teach the students to learn online (not just the teachers to teach online) VanceS: bingo RitaZ: here the youngest have no interest! unbelievable! DennisOl: They have more potential, Michael, but as they become more and more entrenched in the educational establishment (which is conservative by nature), they lose more and more of their initial derring-do and willingness to experiment. MichaelAC: sad Rita MichaelAC: and Dennis RitaZ: WE are the exception ;-))) DennisOl: Well, yes, it's sad--but it's not a death knell. MichaelAC: I am noticing a diff here - younger teachers are much more willing to experiement with tech approaches VanceS: someone in the writingmatrix project said that at first her students showed little interest in interacting with unknown people in foreign cultures DennisOl: I mean, innovators are always in a class by themselves. MichaelAC: maybe VanceS: they had their own cliques and interests DennisOl: That doesn't surprise me, Vance. VanceS: but attitudes changed on doing it RitaZ: not yet, Michael, the coming generations will, I hope VanceS: they got interested quickly MichaelAC: ave age of teachers in Aust = 53! SvetlanaM: Michael - Is it that the young teachers experiment iwth technology and then fall back on the traditional f2f stuff? I've found this to be the case. It's an experiment - wow, how interesting! But now back to the classroom. DennisOl: And that, Vance and Michael, is why I say, "Yes, it's sad--but it's not a death knell." VanceS: right VanceS: people just have to be shown, exposed SvetlanaM: It's got to be integrated into the syllabus from the top - examinable! DennisOl: Agreed, Vance. VanceS: discover how the TOOLS work MichaelAC: Svetlana - it';s too early to tell. I will monitor - partic in the light of this discussion RitaZ: exactly, Vance VanceS: how they fit in with their lives and interests DennisOl: And people just have to be willing to take a leap of faith. MichaelAC: Maybe I should be more sceptical of younger teachers RitaZ: but many dont even show up for the show, yet DennisOl: No, Michael; you should admire them and place your hope in them. RitaZ: until its implemented from above MichaelAC: I would rather do that Dennis! DennisOl: But you should also realize that some of the best will likely leave education. VanceS: Michael, remember when you came here to abu dhabi and our audience was off watching a rugby match on telly MichaelAC: I do I do :( VanceS: makes a good story MichaelAC: that probably won't change! DennisOl: And you should realize, too, that some of them will become overwhelmed, burn out, and revert to more manageable but less "impactive" teaching and learning. RitaZ: were they young teachers, Vanve? SvetlanaM: The problem is that they have to get those certificates and qualifications. In the real world, do they do this in a f2f classroom? or in a blended learning environment ? or? VanceS: not at all RIta MichaelAC: but maybe - maybe - younger teachers growing up with technology won't see it as an 'overload thing'? VanceS: the old set in their ways already know it already kind DennisOl: Sveta: In the "real world," online education is regarded as somewhat suspect. EBobB joined the room. DennisOl: Hey, EB. SvetlanaM: yes Michael. It also differs according to the encironment you're in. Which country, which college, uni etc VanceS: eBob howdy DennisOl: Yew awl raht? MichaelAC: Hi there Bob SvetlanaM: Yes, I agree completely. EBobB: Hello all, and Happy Holidays. VanceS: do we write? is that what he asked? MichaelAC smiles MichaelAC: dunno - don't speak Texan very well SvetlanaM: EBob. DennisOl: I sincerely hope you're right, Michael--that "younger teachers growing up with technology won't see it as an 'overload thing'." RitaZ: as I see it, 10-year-olds, those who are stuck to cell phones today will be easier to persuade..., maybe they will be the leaders DennisOl: I think you're right, Rita--and I also think education WILL CHANGE. DennisOl: But I think it won't change quickly. SvetlanaM agrees with Rita and Dennis EBobB: R U sure the 10 year olds arent already the leaders....they are the main market for cell phones. RitaZ: thats for sure! the thing is WE want to see the changes in our life time!! :-( VanceS: Sessums and I thnk Konrad again, at WiAOC DennisOl: Hear, hear, EB! VanceS: remarked how people use so much high tech in their social lives MichaelAC: and? VanceS: but fail to make the transfer to their work lves EBobB: ....and in fact, the change is already occuring and we are just tring to keep up. VanceS: so it's not a matter of overload so much VanceS: it's a question of realizing how to apply it DennisOl: That's both surprising and unsurprising at the same time, Vance. EBobB: I agree Vance. JeffC joined the room. RitaZ: and when teachers say stds are NOT communicating as they did before, THEY ARE, but in a different way! DennisOl: Definitely, Rita! SvetlanaM: Oh I agree Rita. They are reading! just not the kind of things we used to read - RitaZ: exactly MichaelAC: I imagine that more and more people will learnt the way we will.. we can't be that weird..can we? EBobB: I think kids today, communicate like they always did....I know my generation had it's own secret system of talking to each other.... VanceS: i certainly read diferently DennisOl: This all reminds me of what happened with the African American Vernacular English movement years and years ago. MichaelAC: learn the way we do EBobB: one in which teachers were the last to understand. MichaelAC: tell us Dennis.. VanceS: lets call it AAVE, and what happned? VanceS: eubonics? EBobB: Was that where the Ebonics idea came from? RitaZ waits for Dennis story ;-) EBobB: ....small minds... DennisOl: Well, there was a lot of concern that kids who grew up speaking "the vernacular" (sometimes called Ebonics) missed out . . . because even though they were communicating, they were communicating only with themselves. DennisOl: BUT to access "standard English," there had to be a starting point. EBobB: Dont most communities including communities of practice have their own unique vocabularies.....podner. DennisOl: So there were ambitious programs set up that started with "the vernacular" and then moved gradually into "the Man's English." DennisOl: It worked . . . except for one thing. VanceS: and talk only amonst themselves? ponder ... MichaelAC: Man's English???? EBobB: Didn't some one earlier say they didnt communicate well in "Texan" DennisOl: Parents were against it. MichaelAC: Yes I struggle with Texan :) DennisOl: "The Man" = The Authorities = The White Establishment EBobB: Michael, I just struggle.... MichaelAC: LOL DennisOl: So the "Black English" / "AfroAmerican Vernacular English" movement failed. EBobB: intercommunication vs intracommunication. EBobB: Teachers primary problem is the communication between communities. DennisOl: And so did Ebonics (a later incarnation of BE / AAVE). VanceS: nowadays they would find a niche ni the long tail DennisOl: BUT even though the AAVE / BE movement failed, it had a lasting impact. DennisOl: And it led to a much better understanding (among those who were open-minded) that many young AfroAmericans were NOT mentally defective--but that they had a different way of communicating. VanceS: ever read William Labov? SvetlanaM: and the establishment youth were busy trying to learn the 'vernacular' in order to appear cool... DennisOl: Sure--Labov, Wolfram, . . . . . MichaelAC: not sure V (memory problem) VanceS: don't know wolfram MichaelAC: a linguistics guy? VanceS: but labov transcribed reams of conversation data RitaZ: tell us the gist DennisOl: W. Labov's U Penn homepage: DennisOl: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~wlabov/ VanceS: and produced books showing that this vernacular in question VanceS: was systematic and 'grammatical' DennisOl: Walt Wolfram's vitae page: DennisOl: http://www.duke.edu/web/linguistics/facultyvitae-wolfram.htm EBobB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labov VanceS: so the perception of lack of mental capacity on teh part of its speakers was spurious and biased RitaZ thanks eveready Dennis RitaZ and Bob ;-) SvetlanaM: He's been kinda busy .... MichaelAC: like a good battery (Eveready) DennisOl: African American English: A Webpage for Linguists and other Folks: DennisOl: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~patrickp/AAVE.html SvetlanaM: lol RitaZ: yeah, Michael DennisOl: Labov discovered that AAVE was a valid linguistic construct, but also discovered that it had features that were not present in mainstream American English. EBobB: Everyready bunny - no language - just a visual symbol - understood by all sorts of groups around the world. JeffC: PWN3D, eh Dennis? DennisOl: Why? -- There was a substrate of West African linguistic features present in AAVE that were not present in "The Man's" language. DennisOl: PWN3D? MichaelAC: Ok Jeff - please explain! JeffC: leet speak JeffC: text messaging DennisOl: Ah . . . . . YES! VanceS: neologisms? MichaelAC: but I still don't get it... EBobB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet JeffC has a 13 year old son... PWN3D= "owned"... indeed... a language us "grups" don't get. ThomasLev joined the room. DennisOl: Yes--and "in slang" and jargon and "elitist language" DennisOl: Hey, Tom! ThomasLev: hello! DennisOl: Don't get what, Michael? EBobB: Hi Thomas. VanceS: Hi Tom SvetlanaM: Hi Thomas EBobB: I think science fiction writers uniquely understand things like ebonics and leet. MichaelAC: OK - Leet - something to follow up as homework! DennisOl: I think you're right, EB. EBobB: They often create languages and terminology, that is not common, but perfectly describes what they are talking about. DennisOl: For sure. RitaZ apologizes for having to leave..., family awaiting, great sunny Sunday morn outside :-( and :-) DennisOl: Years and years ago, someone I knew started a religion based on the writings of Robert Heinlein ("Stranger in a Strange Land"). EBobB: I think I see the beginning of unique language in SL. DennisOl: The entire basis of the religion was "chering." JeffC groks Heinlein. EBobB: In fact, the idea that you know what SL is, makes my point. MichaelAC: ok - nice to see you Rita VanceS waves to Rita SvetlanaM: bye Rita RitaZ hugs all friends EBobB: I am still trying to "grok" DennisOl: a single concept that Heinleinians grokked, but that wasn't really translatable into English. RitaZ left the room (signed off). JeffC: Babelfish hasn't caught up to leet, but thanks to the wonders of the Internet, here's a leet speak translator: http://home.no.net/hellshl/main/translate.html ThomasLev: wow DennisOl: LUVIT, Jeff! EBobB: I read SnowCrash not too long ago. Seems the author had a pretty good handle on Babel and how we communicate. EBobB: Lots of grand thoughts in that book. JeffC: well... on the flip side... Heinlein was considered fascistic by many. DennisOl: Snow Crash: An Overview: DennisOl: http://www.scholars.nus.edu.sg/cpace/scifi/ns/snowcrashov.html VanceS: I put PWN3D into the translator and didn't get 'owned' JeffC: there's a book called "The Forever War" by Haldeman that was an answer to his militaristic "Starship Troopers." VanceS: what am i doing wrong? MichaelAC: Svetalana - to go back to our original discussion - what we are doing here is what we would want outr students to do - right? JeffC: probably nothing Vance... perhaps it's a bad translator! all of them have problems ya know! SvetlanaM: help = h3|p in Leetspeak MichaelAC: teaching each other SvetlanaM: yes, Michael DennisOl: _The Forever War_ (Wikipedia): DennisOl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War DennisOl: Yes, Michael. MichaelAC: we could learn to speak Leet!? DennisOl: From my point of view, that's what this is all about. DennisOl: Or AAVE. DennisOl: Or Suthrun. EBobB: So much to read, to listen to, to view....and so little time.....back to youtube. DennisOl: Or Strine. MichaelAC: roit DennisOl: Or Papiamentu. SvetlanaM: Michael - with one essential difference: this is our free time and we're not earning a living. I agree with you, Michael. But this discussion is one removed from the real-world! DennisOl: Or Volapük. SvetlanaM: Michael, we are learning here, from each other. A community of practice. MichaelAC: but need it be Svetlana? (I'm not being paid for being here) DennisOl waits for Sveta's response SvetlanaM: Right- but we have paying jobs in the real world. This is a luxury. Oh, I'm getting into hot water here - but I'll persevere. MichaelAC: but being here has benefits for my paid work EBobB: Maybe teachers should give teaching away for free, and be paid to learn. SvetlanaM: Yes, DennisOl: Sure. Why not, EB? EBobB: It would certainly be an interesting change. DennisOl: But how would society at large deal with such a subversive and revolutionary stance? EBobB: What would happen if we paid kids to learn. MichaelAC: ha hah ha ha SvetlanaM: Getting back to the original discussion, I just question what's really been achieved. I agree that we're learning and that this is 'real' learning. DennisOl: Why they would learn . . . in spades. EBobB: Oh, no doubt they would lock us all away. DennisOl: And play "dummy" games for fun. ClaireB joined the room. ThomasLev: or, make people administration on the way in, and let them teach only if they survive it EBobB: and then Che Guevere would free us and we would be given Cuba, as home base. MichaelAC: listening to Svetlana.. ThomasLev: Hi Claire! DennisOl: And of course they would lock us all away--either literally or figuratively. MichaelAC: Hi Claire SvetlanaM: But will they learn the English for their university degrees and qualifications? JeffC: spades? dummy games? are there other bridge players here besides me? DennisOl: Hey, Claire. ClaireB left the room (signed off). DennisOl: I was speaking figuratively, Jeff, not in terms of bridge. ClaireB joined the room. MichaelAC: S - if it was seen to be effective yes they would SvetlanaM: They have to pass the exams, get the grades. They need the f2f classrooms for that, in my opinion. DennisOl: Hi again, Claire! ClaireB: hi guys ThomasLev: wb DennisOl: "They has to pay they dues." EBobB: What is a f2f classroom....does that only occur in a educational setting. JeffC: I know Dennis, but as resident wiseguy and tapped in's class clown, i couldn't resist. MichaelAC: really Svetlana? Do they really need classrooms? DennisOl: hee hee hee EBobB: I think we need to really think what f2f means. EBobB: SL is going to blur f2f to the point that it is pretty much a mute term. DennisOl: I think F2F is a construct favored by bean counters. SvetlanaM: *still* need the f2f classrooms. Michael. It's just a question that's been bugging me for years now. Yes, I think they do need f2f classrooms, or online equivalents. EBobB: Then we will start talking about t2t.... EBobB: Touch 2 touch. DennisOl: mind to mind EBobB: Knee 2 knee. DennisOl: thought to thought EBobB: m2m.....I really like that. DennisOl: neuron-firing to neuron-firing JeffC: I'm always amazed by teachers and students who argue that they need "personal contact" in disparaging online learning... whereas with virtual you really get more interaction between students, and with instructors than in standard f2f courses. MichaelAC: i agree Jeff - we know that DennisOl: Agreed, Jeff. VanceS on phone DennisOl: BUT you have to work much harder--at least initially--to keep the interpersonal interactions going online. EBobB: is vance p2p? DennisOl: hee hee hee EBobB: phone 2 phone. DennisOl: I'll be back in a few minutes . . . EBobB: Ok, then.....I guess this would be a good time to go make some coffee.... EBobB: brb.... ClaireB: what are we talking about? ClaireB: coffee is always good JeffC: vernacular JeffC: i think MichaelAC: so many things Claire! Who can summarise? ClaireB: I don't see why people feel that they have to compare f2f with computer interaction. it's not better or worse - just different ClaireB: IMHO SvetlanaM agrees with Claire MichaelAC: Thanks for a great discussion everyone. It's getting late here so I might depart... MichaelAC: Good night from Australia! ThomasLev: good night! VanceS: night, still on phone SvetlanaM: See ya, Michael MichaelAC: Bye all! MichaelAC left the room (signed off). JeffC: only 5:40 a.m. here! NinaTL joined the room. ThomasLev: Hi Nina! SvetlanaM: And for me it's time for lunch - already quite late and I still have to cook it! ClaireB: hi nina ClaireB hugs nina SvetlanaM: Bye then everyone. Hello and Goodbye to Nina. NinaTL: Hi everyone--sorry to be so late. I overslept. ClaireB: bye svetlana NinaTL: 3 airkisses to Sveta SvetlanaM waves goodbye ClaireB: how is the wether there, nina? NinaTL: not bad, no precip NinaTL: how about PA? ClaireB: they are predicting snow and icey rain here ThomasLev: we're just waking up to snow here, first time all year NinaTL: They predict and predict but nothing happens NinaTL: We did have our first little winter storm about 10 days ago NinaTL: How many inches, Tom? ThomasLev: about six NinaTL: Nice! Pretty. NinaTL: When we had our snow I decided to take the bus and my usual 2-hour (back and forth) commute took 6 1/2 hours. NinaTL: It was pretty gruesome. ThomasLev: no, that's too much, maybe only 2- ThomasLev: 3 NinaTL: Make up your mind! Have you been outside yet? ThomasLev: I went out for a long walk about midnight ThomasLev: it was 2-3 then NinaTL: So it must be more now, right? Is it still snowing? DennisOl: Hi, Nina! NinaTL: Dennis my friend, it is lovely to see you. DennisOl: The discussion earlier reminded me of something else. NinaTL: Haven't seen you on YM in ages; where have you been? DennisOl: Likewise, my friend Nina! Efkharistóu! DennisOl: I've been busy "establishing closure" with my (former) college job. NinaTL: Vance, I see you have been blogging about several things I am interested in--wiziq and facebook--but I haven't read your posts yet NinaTL: Oh dear, Dennis, that means you are officially retiring, right? DennisOl: No. DennisOl: I have officially resigned from teaching, but I'm not yet retired. I'm on long-term disability. DennisOl: That means I get a monthly pension but am not retired. In fact, I continue to accumulate years and points toward retirement. NinaTL: That's good, I think. Was it difficult to arrange it? DennisOl: Yes, very. DennisOl: Very time-consuming. NinaTL: And does it leave open the door to return to teaching if your health improves? DennisOl: Lots of forms and follow-up and documentation of this and that and the other. SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). NinaTL: I am sure. DennisOl: Yes, but not at my original job. I would have to start all over again. DennisOl: And given the competitive nature of ESL/Developmental English jobs in Phoenix, my chances of being rehired are not good. NinaTL: Maybe you are okay with that? DennisOl: PLUS the establishment says that given my age, my longevity in a job would be limited. VanceS: Hi, off phone now DennisOl: Yes, I'm definitely OK with that. VanceS: working on exam preparation NinaTL: Hi, vance! NinaTL: Do you have plans for when the red tape is not taking up your life? NinaTL: (that one for Dennis) VanceS: Dennis clued me in on this, I'll listen for a bit DennisOl: Re the earlier discussion, I remember when--during the seventies, I think--there was a blizzard of ESL/EFL methods. DennisOl: I've just started to make them, Nina. NinaTL: That's when I was getting my master's NinaTL: suggestopedia and CLL and all that ThomasLev: silent way DennisOl: When I started teaching, I was REQUIRED to do audiolingual drills for an hour a day in each of my classes. NinaTL: yep NinaTL: I started with the AL method also, over in France ClaireB: me too NinaTL: The funny thing was that we had tapes and little tape players ThomasLev: most teachers today are AL survivors DennisOl: Yes--and the Lozanov Method and the Situational Approach and later the Direct Method and later still strict-constructionist Collaborative Learning. NinaTL: but they had no reverse function DennisOl: and much more. ClaireB: I'm older than you; I had reel-to=reel players VanceS remembers the dear old AL approach NinaTL: oh my Claire you are old (just kidding) DennisOl: I remember those, Claire. I had them, too. ClaireB: yes indeed i am ThomasLev: r2r? NinaTL: So I couldn't let the students listen more than once! haha. It was absurd. ClaireB: lol tom DennisOl: And what happened was that this one or that one would say 'The ABC Method is the only one that makes sense." EBobB: Im back. ThomasLev: wb NinaTL: Hi, EBob ClaireB: there is a great article in tesol quarterly called "the tyranny of methods" EBobB: Went to make coffee and had to change lightbulbs. NinaTL: Actually, I myself learned French via the AL method ClaireB: early 80s, by Mark Clarke DennisOl: But later, people would say, in response, "Maybe. But I follow the Eclectic Approach." NinaTL: I think it worked pretty well! ChristenZ joined the room. DennisOl: They ALL worked pretty well. NinaTL: Of course I supplemented it with trips and later 3 years in France DennisOl: Because there are many ways to learn. ThomasLev: Hi Christen ClaireB: but krashen said that if one says that one is an eclectic, it just means unprincipled EBobB: I supposedly learned German the AL way, but I really learned German in a bar and from a German girlfriend....immersive? VanceS: my wife can say Quel est le date de la fete nacionale de France? DennisOl: All those methodological breakthroughs offered insights into learning, but they weren't the ONLY WAY to learn . . . or teach. NinaTL: The thing that amazes me is that we have completely thrown out oral drilling. I wonder if that is really a good idea--to eliminate it entirely. VanceS: we joke about it a lot ThomasLev: utililtarian is a principle DennisOl: No, I don't think so, Nina. It's actually very effective--but it's not the only way. ClaireB: they all have advantages as well as drawbacks DennisOl: And "backwards build-up" is a terrific way to work with pronunciation and intonation. DennisOl: Hear, hear, Claire. ClaireB: i teach the cute little freshman about methods ClaireB: freshmen NinaTL: We are presently engaged in a self-study at my institute and they want to know what methods we use. I found this question extremely difficult to answer. DennisOl: Yes, the immersion approach definitely works . . . but it isn't quick. NinaTL: I don't even know what methods I use! NinaTL: I like backwards buildup also ClaireB: nina, just tell them communicative because it is now the gospel of the land ChristenZ left the room. EBobB: Dennis, is immersion really any slower than other types. DennisOl: A book editor friend of mine always says, "You can have it good, you can have it quick, or you can have it cheap. Pick two." NinaTL: Well when I looked up communicative it had some characteristics that don't describe what I do--like not teaching grammar explicitly, I think DennisOl: Yes, EB, it's definitely slower--because true immersion is unstructured. ClaireB: but does that apply to language learning? ThomasLev: Direct. You present stuff, you get them to use it, then ya test it DennisOl: Yes, I think so, Claire. EBobB: But doesn't structured close a lot of doors to communication? EBobB: and does it really teach communication or structure of the language. DennisOl: Yes, but it imposes artificial order into what is essentially a chaotic process. NinaTL: The problem with imemrsion is that accuracy gets ignored in the haste to function VanceS: that's a problem only if you're testing accuracy NinaTL: I am a big stickler for correct DennisOl: In true immersion, it doesn't, but communication and accuracy are not presumed to happen at the same time. ThomasLev: if that's happening, then it's more communicative EBobB: it almost sounds like adherence to the rules is of more value than gaining real understanding of others. ThomasLev: there NinaTL: Well, I know lots of immigrants who've been here for years and their English is fossilized and wrong DennisOl: And that's precisely why education gets so straight-jackety. EBobB: I am not a language teacher so I can ask these questions. DennisOl: Yes, of course. ThomasLev: oops...is a necessity of fitting into a classroom dynamic DennisOl: (to both Nina and EB) NinaTL: Like my brother- and sister-in-law, who always say things like " a couple two..." EBobB: Nina, can the immigrants get along? VanceS: if you want to communicate or correct a fossilizaton problem ThomasLev: students need grades, teachers need a paycheck, etc. ClaireB: but is just getting along the real goal? VanceS: the remedy is lots of real language modeling DennisOl: Hear, hear, Tom and Vance. DennisOl: No, of course it isn't. ThomasLev: but communication requires a certain amount of accuracy also EBobB: Back to teachers getting paid for something, I am not sure they can do. DennisOl: (getting along isn't the real goal) NinaTL: Yes and no, EBob. When they need anything done in writing, they come to me. ClaireB: in some situtations, just getting along **is** the main goal, DennisOl: The fly in the ointment, Claire and Tom, is that there are different kinds of communication. VanceS: but communication and feedback loops will correct language if the student is receptive ClaireB: like for tourists DennisOl: Different levels of communication. NinaTL: This is also true of my dear husband, who learned the same way. But he reads competently, which they can't VanceS: if the student is not receptive then you're probably doing damage affectively by forcing accuracy NinaTL: There was a difference in education level though; he attended university and is a voracious reader in both Greek and English, whereas his sister and her husband just finished elementary school in Greece. ClaireB: in some languages, i am thrilled if I can just get along DennisOl: Using English for Academic Purposes is NOT the same as using English as a tourist. (And of course, we could be referring to Urdu or Papiamentu as well as English.) NinaTL: Yes, of course EBobB: Heck, I am just glad to be able to distinguish between the bathroom and the banjo. DennisOl: And that's my point, too, Claire. There are different types and degrees of "just getting along." NinaTL: And I think we would all agree that accuracy counts for nothing if the student cannot communicate EBobB: Took me forever to find out what the WC was. ThomasLev: thank you for distinguishing those two, Bob DennisOl: Hear, hear, Nina. EBobB: YW. VanceS: benjo is bathroom in japanese so I can see teh mixup eBob NinaTL: On the other hand, communication is necessarily affected by inaccuracy ClaireB: otherwise, pity the poor banjo EBobB: Banjo in Spanish....is toilet. ThomasLev: no wonder it sounded twangy for a while DennisOl: LUVIT, Claire! DennisOl: No, it's baño, EB. EBobB: Actually it is spelled different, but I dont think thats on my keyboard. EBobB: Right Dennis. ThomasLev: had some trouble tuning the g-string NinaTL: And native speakers' impression of NNSs can also be adversely affected DennisOl: The "j" and the "ñ" are two entirely different sounds. VanceS: so it's L2 interference that's causing people to use eBob's banjo? DennisOl: ROTFL, Vance! NinaTL: haha EBobB: Thats the reason, I leave my banjo in the case. DennisOl: The question is, what KIND of interference? VanceS: could be why people sing in bathrooms too EBobB: especially if there are a lot of poor spanish speakers in the audience/ DennisOl: hee hee hee NinaTL: jiji DennisOl: kha kha kha EBobB: eeeehahhh. ThomasLev: take your pick, so to speak ClaireB: lololol DennisOl: hö hö hö NinaTL: very good, Tom EBobB: hohoho. NinaTL: Who laughs like that, Dennis? EBobB: Santa. NinaTL: heu heu? DennisOl: I don't know. Maybe certain Scandihoovians. ClaireB: it must be the silly season NinaTL: I think so DennisOl: heu heu: LUVIT! EBobB: Unless, Santa is in New Zealand, where he says " Ha ha ha." DennisOl: Now whatever would you have THAT idea, Clairinha? DennisOl: I don't think Santa would laugh with "hai hai hai" in Japan, though. NinaTL: I have to announce that my proposal for TESOL was turned down yesterday. :-( DennisOl: Or with "hao hao hao" in China. NinaTL: I hope to resubmit to the EV DennisOl: The EVO is better anyway, Nina. ClaireB: yes, just do it in one of the fairs NinaTL: Yes, I am sure that's true NinaTL: Actually I had a TESOL dream last night, I just remembered DennisOl: Oops: "Now whatever would give you THAT idea, Clairinha?" ClaireB: there isn't much rhyme or reason as to what gets accepted at tesol, in my opinion NinaTL: I went to TESOL in NY and somehow did not attend any sessions and even did not go to the EV at all NinaTL: God knows what I was doing there ClaireB: hanging out with us ThomasLev: that happened to me one TESOL NinaTL: Then it was over and I realized NinaTL: Truly, Tom? Mine was just a stress dream! DennisOl: You were probably doing what a lot of convention-goers do: networking and seeing the sites. DennisOl: sights ThomasLev: it's like a classroom dream, first day of teaching NinaTL: haha Claire, probably right DennisOl: Oh, yeah, Tom. EBobB: I went to TESOL in San Antonio and met all the great instructors and all the important people. ThomasLev: maybe it was the year i lost my wallet NinaTL: I have never seen sights DennisOl: And that, to my mind, is what's really important at conventions like TESOL, EB. NinaTL: Well I have only been to a couple of TESOL conventions NinaTL: Seattle was the first one where I had never been to the city before ClaireB: i don't know if I'm going to tesol this year, and I may not know for months NinaTL: I really wanted to do a tour but didn't NinaTL: There was no time I wanted to be away from the convention! DennisOl: I've been to lots of them, Nina, and the first several years I wore myself out going to as many presentations and plenaries and events as I could work in. EBobB: Well, you can probably tour the same city in second life anyway. DennisOl: Later, I realized that networking was actually more beneficial--both in the short run and in the long run. NinaTL: Last year I attended almost no sessions but hung around the EV, which was very educational for me, since I am still such a newbie DennisOl: I can understand that, Nina. ClaireB: the ev is where it's all happening NinaTL :-) DennisOl: Definitely, Claire. NinaTL: Maybe not all but what is of interest to us ClaireB: but for me, call-is = tesol DennisOl: I remember doing an EV session years and years ago with Rong-Chang Li. NinaTL: Actually I never cracked my program book at all last year ClaireB: oh, was there a program book??? NinaTL: That is how I managed to miss Daf and Tere's presentation on BaW DennisOl: It was about CU-See Me. Does anyone remember CU-See Me? VanceS: I think the networking is the most important part of conventions ClaireB: yes, i definitely remember cuseeme NinaTL: It was certainly the most fun! DennisOl: Hear, hear, Vance. My point exactly. VanceS: I remember cu-see-me ClaireB: it evolved into ivisit DennisOl: Yep. NinaTL: late rotfl claire DennisOl: I still have two or three rudimentary webcams that I used with Cu-SeeMe. NinaTL: I don't remember cu see me - somebody pls explain EBobB: well, it is time for me to move on....I have a list of chores to complete today. ClaireB: video teleconferencing with webcams, nina NinaTL: Well have a good day EBob EBobB: Happy Holidays to all of you,, my friends.... ClaireB: but in those days, it wasn't called that ThomasLev: i also have to go ClaireB: happy holidays! EBobB: I look forward to seeing you all in the new year. DennisOl: To you, too, EB! NinaTL: okay, I am still clueless about that--no webcam ThomasLev: thanks! ClaireB: bye guys NinaTL: maybe I should buy myself one for Xmas ClaireB: yes you should DennisOl: Are you leaving, Claire? NinaTL: Bye Tom DennisOl: Yes, do, Nina. EBobB: I am hosting the Knowplace 2nd annual (s)Knowfest this weekend at http://knowplace.ca. VanceS: you're going scarce till after new years eBob? ClaireB: no, but some people are ThomasLev left the room (signed off). DennisOl: Tom: You take good care, hear? EBobB: Come by and say hello, and pick up a recipe or two for your holidays. ClaireB: nina, ask santa to buy you a webcam EBobB: and see some really fun videos from youtube. NinaTL: I'vve already gained a pound EBobB: Bye all. EBobB: Hohoho. DennisOl: Sounds good, EB. I'll be there if I can. NinaTL: I have banished santa from my life EBobB left the room (signed off). NinaTL: Two years ago my husband and I decided to end gift giving among adults ClaireB: sounds good, nina DennisOl: I would really, really like to find time to make some kind of Slavic Christmas bread this year. NinaTL: It has been a great December stress-reliever ClaireB: I'll bet that things are now more relaxed for you DennisOl: May Ptitsa or Vanochka. NinaTL: Oh Dennis, you would have loved what I did yesterday: there was a Russian Winter Festival at the Hillwood Museum in DC DennisOl: Oh, yeah? ClaireB: for me, the biggest xmas stress releiver was marrying a jew, lol NinaTL: I will send you some pictures DennisOl: I bet! DennisOl: Do, Nina! NinaTL: Well Claire, I AM a Jew, so that may have been one reason I could kick the gift giving habit DennisOl: By the way, I expanded my Christmas trivia recently! NinaTL: And the Greek tradition doesn't make such a big deal of Christmas so he was okay with it too DennisOl: Have you given up on chanukah gelt, too, Nina? ClaireB: the only year we had a tree was the year that we had an exchange student who was moslem, and she wanted a tree NinaTL: I get the chocolate kind for my daughter DennisOl: Here's my newly expanded Christmas trivia. NinaTL: We always have a Hanukah party NinaTL: It was last Sat night DennisOl: Christmas is actually celebrated (really) on four different dates. ClaireB: we were given a menorah this year, but we didn't light it NinaTL: We invite two goy families and one like us: Greek husband and Jewish American wife ClaireB: only four, dennis? DennisOl: December 25th, January 6th, January 7th, and January 19th. DennisOl: Maybe more. ClaireB: i'm surprised that it is only 4, and apparently jesus was born sometime in the spring anyhow DennisOl: December 25th and January 7th are both actually December 25th--but on different calendars. NinaTL: When you think that Jesus was likely born in the spring (when the shepherds were lying in the fields keeping watch over their flocks) that's pretty good! DennisOl: Well, yes, Claire. The actual date of Christmas was determined by consensus--not by actual facts. NinaTL: My other holiday tradition is attending the Kennedy Center Messiah singalong, which I did last Sunday afternoon NinaTL: Awesome, as usual! ClaireB: i thought that the date is associated with celebration othe solstice VanceS: shepherds don't watch sheep in wintertime?? NinaTL: And the man sitting in front of me told me about music MIDI, which I didn't know about NinaTL: Do you? NinaTL: Not at night, Vance, only during lambing DennisOl: December 6th is the Epiphany (Theophany to Orthodox); that's when Armenians celebrate Christmas--except in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem, they celebrate it on January 6th on the old (Julian) calendar. VanceS: oh, thanks Nina DennisOl: Claire: Yes--Saturnalia and the feast of Sol Invictus. NinaTL: Sheep can generally sleep without assistance! ClaireB: my husband and i give each other gifts, and i like that, because it's an opportunity to get and give something frivolous! NinaTL: (All we like sheep have gone astray...) NinaTL: Dennis you are a regular Wikipedia DennisOl: Saturnalia: The Day of Saturn: December 17th. NinaTL: Anyway the MIDI is digital music for choral singing on the internet ClaireB: dennis is probably cheating and using wikipedia NinaTL: I read music very poorly so it will be great NinaTL: I can finally learn the choruses I don't know NinaTL: www to the rescue--again! ClaireB: i'm getting a cd of portuguese folk music for xmas NinaTL: possible, claire, possible DennisOl: Sol Invictus (see the connection to the Winter Solstice): DennisOl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus NinaTL: without webcams who would know? ClaireB: (I know -- I saw the package!) NinaTL: cheating, Claire! DennisOl: The CD sounds wonderful, Claire. ClaireB: couldn't help seeing NinaTL: Actually I bought myself John McPhee's latest book ClaireB: came with the mail ClaireB: who is john mcphee, she asks in ignorance NinaTL: when I ordered Carole King and James Taylor CDs for my daughter NinaTL: He's a writer I just love ClaireB: do you have amazon prime? NinaTL: He writes nonfiction, very eclectic NinaTL: nope NinaTL: the latest one is about trucking, I think ClaireB: it might save money on shipping DennisOl: In a minute, I'll give a link to some very beautiful Slavic koljadky (Christmas songs). NinaTL: He's written about geology, Florida oranges, Bill Bradley, canoes... ClaireB: amazon prime definitely saves me money, but it also presents a bigger temptation to order things NinaTL: I got to meet him (groupie experience) when he spoke at UM a few days ago NinaTL: What is it exactly, Claire? NinaTL: a few years ago I mean! DennisOl: Here's the koljadky link: DennisOl: http://www.infoukes.com/culture/music/samples/kolyadky/ ClaireB left the room (signed off). ClaireB joined the room. VanceS: wb ClaireB: hmm, things stopped working DennisOl: Claire, I wanted to be sure you got the koljadky link. I think you'd enjoy the music. DennisOl: Here it is again: DennisOl: http://www.infoukes.com/culture/music/samples/kolyadky/ ClaireB: thanks, dennis DennisOl: My pleasure. ClaireB: nice music, dennis NinaTL: I hear Messiah coming from the kitchen... I have to go (sing along) NinaTL: have a great week everybody DennisOl: Yes, it's very nice--and most of the Slavic carols aren't well known (or are completely UNknown) in the West. DennisOl: You, too, Nina. NinaTL: Messiah is an even bigger draw than webheads for me! NinaTL left the room (signed off). VanceS: thanks for the music dennis DennisOl: My pleasure, Vance. ClaireB: ok, i should leave too and face the day ClaireB: bye all DennisOl: The Romanians have some wonderful carols, too. VanceS: I have to face the evening ClaireB left the room (signed off). VanceS: making exams at the office VanceS: and go home DennisOl: In Romanian, they're called colinde. DennisOl: Happy examming, Vance. VanceS: nice dennis, love the culture hit each time we encounter DennisOl: Can't help it, Vance. DennisOl: I'm really into multiculturalism. VanceS: it's great, it's what I like about living in UAE too DennisOl: And of course what I'm most into is the cultures that I've been part of. VanceS: one of the thinkgs DennisOl: Yes, I'm sure. DennisOl: Hey, give my best to Bobbi, hear? VanceS: ok, gotta focus on my examing now DennisOl: hee hee hee VanceS: will do VanceS: take care DennisOl: Take good care. DennisOl: And bah-bah for now. VanceS left the room (signed off). 2007.12.16 06:26:40 Signoff